Looking For A Marriage Record

FuranNietchaieff написал:

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I got another one right there. Could I have a translation for this one too? (no need to detail the name of the columns. Only what is handwritten)
I would also like to have confirmation for Engel's name in the end. Is this Lidiya Engela or Engel?

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The other one is for Michail Engel with same parents.

It's Lidiya Engel

>> Ответ на сообщение пользователя OlgaKob от 26 мая 2024 16:02

Thanks again. no further details then. The information is very concise in the certificate

I continued my research until 1890 and found nothing more. So for now I'm going to assume that the couple only had two children.
Now the big question is who they married and how many children they had. This seems to be very difficult

>> Ответ на сообщение пользователя OlgaKob от 26 мая 2024 15:54

What's the conclusion for Ignatiy Engel then?
He was a teacher for what age group of students?

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In my opinion, there's no particular evidence on what grade he taught. I wrote above that it refered to class system of the Table of ranks.
And posted similar examples from yandex archives metrical books.
In my opinion also it was very unlikely that they even mentioned such details as what grade a teacher did in church records.
It was completely irrelevant for such documents, unlike the ranks and offices which they usually mentioned.

As for what grade he had and what subjects he taught, it can be found only in his service list (формулярный список) or the memorial book (памятная книжка) or address calendar (directory) (адрес-календарь) of Kovno governorate for the 1880s .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamyatnaya_Knizhka

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okay I see. I won't do any further research on him at this time. It would have been good to have an idea of the age of the students, this way I could have compared with the education system in France to have an equivalent.

Back to the "class" issue.
Having scanned the above-mentioned memorial book of Kovno governorate, I've noticed that some teachers and officials are all given by this ''class'' title (sostoit v 8-m klasse), etc.), while others are mentioned with actual ranks according to the table of ranks (kollezhskiy asessor). Among those with real ranks are a provincial secretary (gubernskiy sekretar) which is a lower rank (12th, as I remember). While there's someone who's mentioned as being of the 10th class, which can have nothing to do with the number of grades, as there're never been more than 8 in the Russian gymnasiums.

Well, why is such a difference?

Here's a Moscow church record of 1850

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In the house of Mrs Nesterova, of the 8th class, Moscow university's adjutant-professor Fedor Ivanov Buslaev...

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He's turned out to be a famous scholar. Here's his Wiki page

So, hardly a university had 8 classes.


Well, it's still to research for me. But my wild guess is it could be due to actually having a rank patent or not. Since teaching and serving at gynmasiums was considered equivalent to civil service, they had to be graded according to the system of the table of ranks. Yet, being straight from a university, they could have not yet obtained a proper patent for a rank. Plus, it could be that their teaching class was based not on a patent itself but on their education, the type of institution they taught at and what they taught and at which grade. Just wild guessing...

Below are examples from Astrahan archives.
Alexander Mikhailov Petrovsky, a teacher of Astrahan gymnasium.
Here his wife's serf's marriage record of 1836. It mentions him as a ''official of the 9th class serving as a senior teacher at Astrahan gymnasium''

But here in his own marriage of 1833 he's mentioned as simply ''a senior teacher of the 9th class''