Looking For A Marriage Record
Looking for a marriage record in Russian Empire
| OlgaKob | Íàâåðõ ##
26 ìàÿ 2024 21:44 Here Engel's mentioned in Lithuanian eparchy digest (Vilno) [q] Kovno. The all-Russian celebration of the 900th anniversary of the baptism of Rus...At 5 p.m. in the hall of the city duma there took place a formal assembly where in accordance with the prepared program, there occured the following... 4) The teacher of the male classic gymnasium, Mr Engel suggested to the assembly a thorough narration on the life and accomplishments of St Prince Vladimir. [/q] | | |
| FuranNietchaieff Ñîîáùåíèé: 227 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2023 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 48
| Íàâåðõ ##
28 ìàÿ 2024 19:16 28 ìàÿ 2024 19:23 wow, so much information was found on him! If I summarize correctly: Ignatiy was born on October 18, 1857. No place stated but possibly Belarus. Is the file available at the RGIA not digitized? I can't view the site at the moment. He was at school in Mogilev before 1885. In 1885, he was part of the Order of Saint-Stanislas of the 3rd grade as a cavalryman. Between 1885 and 1899 he was admitted as a student to Moscow University. In 1885 he married Aleksandra. Between 1886 and 1899 he went to Kaunas where he had two children and where he worked as a Russian and Latin teacher. In 1898 he received the order of St Anne. An address is indicated: Garnizonnaya Street. Is it in Lithuania or in Russia (Moscow?)? From 1900 to around 1905 he was in Kiev, Ukraine as a professor. He achieved personal nobility too. 2 addresses were mentioned: Bolshaya Kudryavskaya and Georgievskaya ploshchad. I couldn't locate in Kiev
If I'm not mistaken he would have done his military service between 1875 (18 years old) and 1885? Grigory and Ignatiy probably knew each other at that time. Concerning Kiev, it makes me think of Mikhail Netchaieff was an artist in Kiev between probably 1919-1922 or 1914-1916. Grigory and Maria had probably settled there too.
I also noted for Mikhail Pavlovitch Kossov. Perhaps a nephew of Nedzia Kossova. I also noted the non-digitized found concerning Ignatiy's school files
Besides, I don't know if I had asked, but what do you think of the first name "Nedzia"? Is it a real Russian name or do you think it should be Nadezhda/Íàäåæäà? The probability that Maria made a mistake in indicating her mother's first name in French is quite high I think. | | |
| OlgaKob | Íàâåðõ ##
29 ìàÿ 2024 11:38 29 ìàÿ 2024 11:42 FuranNietchaieff íàïèñàë: [q] Ignatiy was born on October 18, 1857. No place stated but possibly Belarus. Is the file available at the RGIA not digitized? I can't view the site at the moment. He was at school in Mogilev before 1885.[/q]
Since he went to Mogilev gymnasium, his family should have very likely resided in Mogilev. FuranNietchaieff íàïèñàë: [q] In 1885, he was part of the Order of Saint-Stanislas of the 3rd grade as a cavalryman.[/q]
No! He wasn't a cavalryman!!!! Cavalry is a type of military unit! He didn't serve in the military! He was a ''cavalier'' of two orders (awards!!!) of st. Stafan and st. Anna. These were govermental wards, not chivalric kinights orders like the Order of Malta)))) | | |
| FuranNietchaieff Ñîîáùåíèé: 227 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2023 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 48
| Íàâåðõ ##
29 ìàÿ 2024 12:02 [q] No! He wasn't a cavalryman!!!! Cavalry is a type of military unit! He didn't serve in the military! He was a ''cavalier'' of two orders (awards!!!) of st. Stafan and st. Anna. These were govermental wards, not chivalric kinights orders like the Order of Malta)))) [/q]
Oh sorry, I didn't understand the nuance. | | |
| OlgaKob | Íàâåðõ ##
29 ìàÿ 2024 12:09 29 ìàÿ 2024 12:18 FuranNietchaieff íàïèñàë: [q] . An address is indicated: Garnizonnaya Street. Is it in Lithuania or in Russia (Moscow?)?[/q]
I don't know. Since he worked in Kovno then, it should be Kaunass. I've googled, there was a noble family named Dobrovolsky in Kovno governorate. I've not found a street with this name, yet there was a Roman-Catholic church built between 1891-95. This one. It was also called "Kaunass garrison cathidral"" So maybe the street was near it. There's no such a street in Moscow. FuranNietchaieff íàïèñàë: [q] From 1900 to around 1905 he was in Kiev, Ukraine as a professor. He achieved personal nobility too.[/q]
No, he wasn't a professor! He was a high school teacher. There were three types of high schools in Russia: real schools (realnye uchilischa; for ordinary people, focused on technical studies), gymnasiums (originally for nobility, focused on the classics, humanities), and cadet corps (military schools). Professors taught at universities. He received the rank of nadvorny sovetnik (court councillor), a 7th class, and then kollezhsky sovetnik (collegiate councillor), a 6th class of the table of ranks. These were considered quite high in the bureaucratic hyararchy. Yet, of course, below the top governmental officials niche. The top governmental ranks started with the class 4 of the table of ranks, which is the actual state councillor (deystvitelny statsky sovetnik). These were the ministerial ranks. Since 1845 the ranks he received gave the right for personall nobility, yet there's no evidence so far, that he actually received the certain patent for it. as for all these patents, it must be in RGIA, the funds of the Senate's Heraldry (Ãåðîëüäèÿ Ïðàâèòåëüñòâóþùåãî Ñåíàòà), because it was them who granted patents on titles and ranks. As fo yet. the title of a personal nobleman was to pass to his wife, but not to his children. They had the right for the hereditary honored citizenship (potomstveniy pochetny grazhdanin). By 1890s these titles no longer had significant value, were more of honorifics. However, they were still much preferred when it came to state service. | | Ëàéê (1) |
| OlgaKob | Íàâåðõ ##
29 ìàÿ 2024 12:42 FuranNietchaieff íàïèñàë: [q] If I'm not mistaken he would have done his military service between 1875 (18 years old) and 1885? [/q]
Since 1874 the military service in Russia was across all social estates and compulsory. But, the starting age was 21. So, he schould have been drafted not until 1878. Then he was a student. I don't know. He may have had some exemption from the duty or be put in reserve. People with higher education also were quilified for shortened period of service, from what I know. But this is not my expertise, so I can't tell for sure. FuranNietchaieff íàïèñàë: [q] Besides, I don't know if I had asked, but what do you think of the first name "Nedzia"? Is it a real Russian name or do you think it should be Nadezhda/Íàäåæäà? The probability that Maria made a mistake in indicating her mother's first name in French is quite high I think.[/q]
There's no such a name in Russian as ''Nedzia''. Must be Nadezhda. However, there could also be a shortened family nickname for her. | | |
| FuranNietchaieff Ñîîáùåíèé: 227 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2023 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 48
| Íàâåðõ ##
29 ìàÿ 2024 19:49 [q] I don't know. Since he worked in Kovno then, it should be Kaunass. I've googled, there was a noble family named Dobrovolsky in Kovno governorate. I've not found a street with this name, yet there was a Roman-Catholic church built between 1891-95. This one. It was also called "Kaunass garrison cathidral"" So maybe the street was near it.
There's no such a street in Moscow.[/q]
Kaunas seems to me to be the most logical place given the period [q] No, he wasn't a professor! He was a high school teacher....[/q]
Okay I understand better. I hadn't paid attention to this nuance [q] Since 1874 the military service in Russia was across all social estates and compulsory. But, the starting age was 21.[/q]
I see. Difficult to determine if they met in Moscow or Mogilev/Chaussy. Finally in all cases they became friends [q] There's no such a name in Russian as ''Nedzia''. Must be Nadezhda. However, there could also be a shortened family nickname for her.[/q]
That's what I thought. Nedzia/Naja is probably the shortcut and Nadezhda. However nothing on Yandex regarding Nadezhda kossova or Sinyavskaya. I will try to see on other sites | | |
| FuranNietchaieff Ñîîáùåíèé: 227 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2023 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 48
| Íàâåðõ ##
29 ìàÿ 2024 23:50 29 ìàÿ 2024 23:50 Is there an equivalent of "Ïðàïîðùèê" in English? I'm having a little trouble understanding what a military rank is. I have the impression that it is between the non-commissioned officer and the adjutant? And equivalent of "ãîðöåâú" ? Grigory was promoted to "Ïðàïîðùèê" on January 6, 1861. I believe this followed the war against the Cossacks here named "ãîðöåâú". But maybe I'm wrong | | |
| OlgaKob | Íàâåðõ ##
30 ìàÿ 2024 18:56 FuranNietchaieff íàïèñàë: [q] Is there an equivalent of "Ïðàïîðùèê" in English? I'm having a little trouble understanding what a military rank is. I have the impression that it is between the non-commissioned officer and the adjutant?[/q]
Adjutant is a kind of assistant to an officer. Praporschik as a rank was introduced to Russia during tsar Alexey Romanov, in the 1630s as part of the so-called ''new order regiments''. It was the rank of ensign (flag) bearers in a regiment. It stems from the word "'prapor''. Peter I, his son, introduced it as the first junior officer rank (ober-ofitserskiy chin) and brought hereditary nobility until 1845. It was the entry level class, the 14th. Below there were the so-called ''under-officers'', i.e. non-commisioned officers, that are above privates but below actual officers. Together with the privates (ryadoviye) ''under-offivers'' (unter oficery) shaped up the group called ''nizhniye chiny'' (low ranks). Above the junior officers there were ''staff officers'' (stabs-ofitsery), from the 8th to the 6th classes, the top was colonel. Then there came generals. They say that the praporschik of the Russian Empire was equvalent to modern Russian second lieutenant (mladshiy leytenant). The rank today is a kind of senior private, who is just below sergeants and helps them and junior officers manage the privates. In my humble opinion (which is not professional at all) the contemporary praporschik is somewhere close to the 18th-century Russian corporal (kapral). Then came sergeants. But in the early 19th century they replaced these two by ''junior'' and 'senior'' under-officers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjutanthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PraporshchikFuranNietchaieff íàïèñàë: [q] And equivalent of "ãîðöåâú" ? Grigory was promoted to "Ïðàïîðùèê" on January 6, 1861. I believe this followed the war against the Cossacks here named "ãîðöåâú". But maybe I'm wrong[/q]
Yes, you are. Well, Russian goverment did have to fight Cossacks at some points in history. For example, during the Uprising of Stepan Razin or Emelyan Pugachev. But, here ''gortsy'' refers to the peoples of the Caucasus region that the Russian Empire was trying to conquer, not Cossacks who served in the imperial army. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_War | | |
| FuranNietchaieff Ñîîáùåíèé: 227 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2023 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 48
| Íàâåðõ ##
1 èþíÿ 2024 13:41 Thank you for these clarifications.
Would it be possible to have a translation for this text? "Ìîãèëåâñêîé ãóáåðíèè, àïðѣëÿ 15 äíÿ 1880 ãîäà. Êú ïîäàí³þ ïîäëåæèòú ïî êîìàíäѣ. ѳå ïðîøåí³å ïèñàëú ñàìú ïðîñèòåëú. Ïðîøåí³ÿ ñîñòîÿù³é ïî àðìåéñêîé ïѣõîòѣ Êàïèòàíú Ãðèãîð³é Ìèõàéëîâú Íå÷àåâú ðóêó ïðèëîæèëú.
Ñîãëàñíî ïðåäïèñàí³ÿ Ãëàâíàãî Øòàáà îòú 21ãî íîÿáðÿ 1880 ãîäà çà N. 22682 íàñòîÿùåå ïðîøåí³å íà Âûñî÷àéøåå Èìÿ, ñîâñѣìè ïîèìåíîâàííûìè âú íåìú ïðèëîæåí³àìè, ñîñòîÿâøàãî ïî Àðìåéñêîé Ïѣõîòà ñëóæèâøàãî, äî îò÷èñëåí³ÿ ïî ðîäó îðóæ³ÿ íà ñëóæáѣ âú 17îìú ðåçåðâíîìú ïѣõîòíîìú êàäðîâîìú Áàòàë³îíѣ à íûíѣ óâîëåííàãî, Âûñî÷àéøèìú ïðèêàçîìú 20 ìàÿ 1880 ãîäà, îòú ñëóæáû, Êàïèòàíà Íå÷àåâà, ïðåäñòàâëÿÿ Íà÷àëüíèêó Ìѣñòíûõú âîéñêú â Ìèíñêàãî âîåííàãî Îêðóãà, èìѣþ ÷åñòü ïðîñèòü õîäàòàéñòâà åãî ïðåâîñõîäèòåëüñòâà, î íàãðàæäåí³è ëåííïîìÿíóòàãî îôèöåðà : ìóíäèðîì âú îòàñïàâêѣ è îïðåäѣëåííûìú ïî çàêîíëåíí ïåíñ³îíîìú; íà íàãðàæäåíèå-æå ñëѣäóþùèìú ÷èíîìü, îôèöåðúÿòîòú, ïî íåâûñëóãѣ èìú óçàêîíåííàãî ãîäè÷íàãî ôîêÿ, ïîñëѣ ïðîèçâîäñòâà åãî âúïîñëñîêúäí³é ÷èíü - ïðàâà íåèìѣñòü ïðèëîæåíèå : ðåâåðñú ïðîâѣðåíí³é íàäëåæèùèìú îáðàçîìú ïîñëóæíîé ñïèñîêú ìåäèöèíñêîå ñâèäѣòåëüñòâî çà N. 162/6559 ðàñòå÷ú ñëóæáû, âѣäîìîñòü íà ïåíñ³þ èçú ýìåðèòàëüíîé êàññû è îòçûâú çà N. 1587 ñú íàäïèñüþ íà íåìú çà N. 2311.
Ãîðîä Âèëüíà 4 Ìàÿ 1881 ãîäà. Âèëåíñê³é ãóáåðíñê³èé Âîèíñê³é íà÷àëüíèêú, Ãåíåðàëü Ìàéîðú Íàïåðåòè.. Ñòàðø³é Àäúþòàíòú, Øòàá ñú Êàïèòàíü Äûìîâñê³é." | | |
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