Looking For A Marriage Record
Looking for a marriage record in Russian Empire
| OlgaKob | Íàâåðõ ##
10 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 0:08 Shulmin íàïèñàë: [q] >> Îòâåò íà ñîîáùåíèå ïîëüçîâàòåëÿ OlgaKob îò 8 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 13:52
Ïîñêîëüêó ðå÷ü èä¸ò î ìåùàíèíå èç ïîëüñêèõ åâðååâ, òî, ïîëàãàþ, siadeblanc âåðíî ïåðåäàëà ñìûñë ïîëüñêî-ðóññêîãî «ìåùàíèí» â äàííîì ñëó÷àå. Åâðåéñêîå íàñåëåíèå êàê â áûâøåé Ðå÷è Ïîñïîëèòîé, òàê è â Ðîññèéñêîé èìïåðèè â îñíîâíîì áûëî çàíÿòî â òîðãîâëå è ñôåðå óñëóã.[/q]
Ðå÷ü èäåò íå òîëüêî î åâðåÿõ. Ó òîïèêñòàðòåðà ê ìåùàíàì îòíîñèëèñü è Íå÷àåâû, êîòîðûå ñëóæèëè â òèïîãðàôèè Ìîñêîâñêîãî óíèâåðñèòåòà. Òîðãîâöû? Atkara-EV âûøå êàê tradesman ïåðåâåëà. + â äðóãîì ìåñòå "ìåùàíñêàÿ äåâèöà" ïåðåâåëà êàê " petty bourgeois girl" - "äåâî÷êà èç ìåëêîé áóðæóàçèè", è âèíîé âñåìó, ïî âñåé âèäèìîñòè, ãóãë-òðàíñëåéò, à ãäå-òî ìóëüòèòðàí. Ìåëêàÿ áóðæóàçèÿ - ýòî ìåëêèå ïðåäïðèíèìàòåëè, êîòîðûå íå æèâóò çà ñ÷åò æàëîâàíèÿ. Íå÷àåâû æå - ìåëêèå ñëóæàùèå, ðàáî÷èå, ýòî óæå áëèæå ê ïðîëåòàðèàòó. ×òî êàñàåòñÿ, ñîñëîâèé, òî ýòî òåðìèí ñóãóáî þðèäè÷åñêèé è ê ðîäó çàíÿòèé íå èìååò îòíîøåíèÿ. Èíîñòðàíåö, íå âëàäåþùèé èëè ïëîõî âëàäåþùèé ðóññêèì, ÷èòàÿ "tradesman" ìîæåò ïîäóìàòü, ÷òî åãî ïðåäîê, ðîäñòâåííèê èëè çíàêîìûé ïðåäêà, óïîìÿíóòûé â äîêóìåíòå, çàíèìàëñÿ èìåííî òîðãîâëåé, âëàäåë ëàâêîé.  ïåðåâîäå, â òàêîì ñëó÷àå, íà ìîé âçãëÿä, ëó÷øå îñòàâëÿòü òðàíñëèòåðàöèþ. | | |
| siadeblanc
Õàáàðîâñê
Ñîîáùåíèé: 1636
Íà ñàéòå ñ 2021 ã.
Ðåéòèíã: 1030
| Íàâåðõ ##
10 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 2:25 10 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 7:02 >> Îòâåò íà ñîîáùåíèå ïîëüçîâàòåëÿ OlgaKob îò 10 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 0:08 Íî ñîñëàëèñü èçíà÷àëüíî íà ìîé ïåðåâîä, êîòîðûé îòíîñèòñÿ ê åâðåéñêèì ìåùàíàì, à íå íà ïåðåâîä Atkara-EV îòíîñÿùèéñÿ ê Íå÷àåâûì-ñîòðóäíèêàì òèïîãðàôèè)) Ñ ïðèâåä¸ííûì ïðèìåðîì ïî íèì ñîãëàñíà. Åñëè åñòü êîíêðåòíàÿ ññûëêà íà ìåñòî òðóäîâîé äåÿòåëüíîñòè, òî ñëåäóåò ïåðåâîäèòü ñ å¸ ó÷¸òîì. Âñ¸ æå íóæíî ñìîòðåòü â êîíòåêñòå, óñëîâíî èç çàïèñè â ÌÊ î÷åíü ðåäêî ïîíÿòíî êòî ìåùàíèí ïî ðîäó äåÿòåëüíîñòè, à êòî çà ñ÷¸ò èìóùåñòâà/íàñëåäñòâà. Íàïðèìåð, äëÿ íåñîâåðøåííîëåòíèõ ìåùàíñêèõ äåòåé ÿ ñîãëàøóñü, ÷òî åäèíñòâåííî âåðíûì âàðèàíòîì áóäåò ÷òî îíè burgher's daughter/son.  ëþáîì ñëó÷àå, íàâåðíÿêà, åñëè ó òîïèêñòàðòåðà âîçíèêíåò êàêîå-òî íåïîíèìàíèå, òî çàäàñò âîïðîñ) | | |
| OlgaKob | Íàâåðõ ##
10 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 10:44 siadeblanc íàïèñàë: [q] Åñëè åñòü êîíêðåòíàÿ ññûëêà íà ìåñòî òðóäîâîé äåÿòåëüíîñòè, òî ñëåäóåò ïåðåâîäèòü ñ å¸ ó÷¸òîì.
Âñ¸ æå íóæíî ñìîòðåòü â êîíòåêñòå, óñëîâíî èç çàïèñè â ÌÊ î÷åíü ðåäêî ïîíÿòíî êòî ìåùàíèí ïî ðîäó äåÿòåëüíîñòè, à êòî çà ñ÷¸ò èìóùåñòâà/íàñëåäñòâà.[/q]
Òðóäîâàÿ æèçíü è èìóùåñòâî ê çàïèñÿì â ìåòðè÷åñêèõ êíèãàõ, ðåâèçèÿõ è èñïîâåäêàõ îòíîøåíèå íå èìååò. "Ñîñëîâèå" è, áîëåå îáùåå ïîíÿòèå, - "ñîñòîÿíèå" - çàêîíîäàòåëüíûå êàòåãîðèè. Ñîâåðøåííî íå ïîíèìàþ, ïî÷åìó Âû íàñòàèâàåòå íà òîì, ÷òî íóæíî ïåðåâîäèòü íàçâàíèÿ ñîñëîâèé ïî ïðåäïîëàãàåìîìó ðîäó çàíÿòèé ÷åëîâåêà. Äà è ñòðàííî ÷èòàòü òàêîå â ïîñòå îïûòíîãî ïîëüçîâàòåëÿ ãåíåàëîãè÷åñêîãî ôîðóìà. | | |
| siadeblanc
Õàáàðîâñê
Ñîîáùåíèé: 1636
Íà ñàéòå ñ 2021 ã.
Ðåéòèíã: 1030
| Íàâåðõ ##
10 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 12:35 10 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 12:37 >> Îòâåò íà ñîîáùåíèå ïîëüçîâàòåëÿ OlgaKob îò 10 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 10:44 Òåì íå ìåíåå â ìåòðè÷åñêèõ çàïèñÿõ, ðåâèçèÿõ, èñïîâåäêàõ óêàçûâàåòñÿ êòî ÷åëîâåê ïî äîëãó ñëóæáû (çà÷àñòóþ), ýòî ðàçâå íå ïðî òðóäîâóþ äåÿòåëüíîñòü? Åñëè ÷åëîâåê óñëîâíî, âîåííûé, ñåêðåòàðü, ñëóæàùèé êîíòîðû, æåëåçíîé äîðîãè è ò.ï., òî â ìåòðèêå, áóäåò óêàçàíî ãäå îí ñëóæèò è çà î÷åíü ðåäêèì èñêëþ÷åíèåì áóäåò óêàçàíî èç êàêîãî îí èëè îíà "ñîñëîâèÿ". "Çâàíèå" â ÌÊ íå ïðîñòî òàê óïîìèíàåòñÿ. Èëè Âû ÷òî-òî äðóãîå â ïîíÿòèå òðóäîâîé æèçíè âêëàäûâàåòå? ×òî âêëàäûâàëîñü â ïîíÿòèå ìåùàí, êîãäà îíî âîøëî â îáîðîò? Ýòî âëàäåëüöû íåäâèæèìîñòè â ãîðîäå, «ñðåäíåãî ðîäà ëþäè», ìåëêèå òîðãîâöû è ñ íàòÿæêîé ðåìåñëåííèêè (êîòîðûå âûäåëÿëèñü â îòäåëüíóþ êàòåãîðèþ - öåõîâûõ ëþäåé). Tradesman - ýòî íå ñðåäíèé êëàññ? Èëè íå âëàäåëåö èìóùåñòâà â ãîðîäå? Åñëè ìû ïîñìîòðèì íà îïðåäåëåíèå burgher - ýòî áóêâàëüíî æèòåëü ãîðîäà, ïðèíàäëåæàùèé ê ñðåäíåìó êëàññó. Îïðåäåëåíèå êîòîðîå Âû ïðåäëàãàåòå, áóêâàëüíî ñâÿçàíî ñ êëàññîì (ñîñëîâèåì), êàê è ðàíåå ïðåäëîæåííîå áóðæóà ñ êîòîðûì âû òîæå áûëè íå ñîãëàñíû. Äðóãîå îïðåäåëåíèå burgher - A member of the mercantile class of a medieval European city. Burgher is a synonym for many words used in modern English, including bourgeoisie, burgess, citizen, and urban elite. + ñêðèí èç ñëîâàðÿ 1808ã. È íàäî æå, tradesman ôèãóðèðóåò, è burgher . Òàê î ÷åì ñïîð?)
 | | Ëàéê (1) |
| OlgaKob | Íàâåðõ ##
11 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 0:26 siadeblanc íàïèñàë: [q] Òåì íå ìåíåå â ìåòðè÷åñêèõ çàïèñÿõ, ðåâèçèÿõ, èñïîâåäêàõ óêàçûâàåòñÿ êòî ÷åëîâåê ïî äîëãó ñëóæáû (çà÷àñòóþ), ýòî ðàçâå íå ïðî òðóäîâóþ äåÿòåëüíîñòü?
Åñëè ÷åëîâåê óñëîâíî, âîåííûé, ñåêðåòàðü, ñëóæàùèé êîíòîðû, æåëåçíîé äîðîãè è ò.ï., òî â ìåòðèêå, áóäåò óêàçàíî ãäå îí ñëóæèò è çà î÷åíü ðåäêèì èñêëþ÷åíèåì áóäåò óêàçàíî èç êàêîãî îí èëè îíà "ñîñëîâèÿ". "Çâàíèå" â ÌÊ íå ïðîñòî òàê óïîìèíàåòñÿ.[/q]
Äà. èíîãäà óïîìèíàþòñÿ äîëæíîñòè, åñëè îíè ãîñóäàðñòâåííûå. Ñòóäåíòû è ó÷àùèåñÿ óïîìèíàëèñü â ýòîì çâàíèè, ò.ê. òîæå, âèäèìî, îôèöèàëüíûé ñòàòóñ. Íî, íàïðèìåð. çàíÿòèå îáùåñòâåííîé äîëæíîñòè, âðîäå, ñòàðîñòû èëè ãëàñíîãî çåìñêîãî ñîáðàíèÿ, ÷òî-òî íå âñòðå÷àëà. ×àùå âñåãî, óïîìèíàþòñÿ èìåííî ÷èíû ïî òàáåëè î ðàíãàõ. Ïðîñòûå ñëóæàùèå, áåç ÷èíà, óïîìèíàëèñü, âðîäå êàê, ïî ñîñëîâèþ, ñêàæåì, êîíòîðùèê èëè êàññèð íà æ/ä. È óæ òåì áîëåå, â ìåòðèêàõ íå áûâàåò çàïèñåé âðîäå "âëàäåëåö êíèæíîé ëàâêè íà òàêîé-òî óëèöå". siadeblanc íàïèñàë: [q] ×òî âêëàäûâàëîñü â ïîíÿòèå ìåùàí, êîãäà îíî âîøëî â îáîðîò?[/q]
Âû îïÿòü ïðî ñâîå. Êàêàÿ ðàçíèöà, ÷òî âêëàäûâàëîñü â ïîíÿòèå "ìåùàíå" êîãäà-òî â èñòîðèè?  Ðîññèéñêîé èìïåðèè ñ 18 âåêà ôóíêöèîíèðîâàëà âåñüìà ñïåöèôè÷íàÿ è äîâîëüíî ôîðìàëüíàÿ ñèñòåìà "ñîñòîÿíèé" è ñîñëîâèé. Ýòî îôèöèàëüíûé ñòàòóñ "íà áóìàãå", ÷åì ÷åëîâåê çàíèìàëñÿ íèêîãî íå èíòåðåñîâàëî. Äàâíî óæå Ñðåäíèå âåêà ïðîøëè, ê 18 âåêó îáùåñòâî íå äåëèëîñü íà òåõ, êòî âîþåò, òåõ, êòî ìîëèòñÿ è òå, êòî ïàøåò, èçâèíèòå. Ïîýòîìó ôàíòàçèðîâàòü ñ ïåðåâîäîì íå ñòîèò. Ìîæíî ïðîñòî íå ïåðåâîäèòü, à îñòàâèòü ðóññêèé òåêñò, ÷òîáû àâòîð òåìû ñàì ïåðåâîäèë ñâîèìè ñèëàìè è âíèêàë â ìåñòíóþ ñïåöèôèêó. siadeblanc íàïèñàë: [q] Òàê î ÷åì ñïîð?)[/q]
Ñïîðèòå Âû ñàìè ñ ñîáîé. ß íè ñ êåì íå ñïîðþ. Äëÿ ìåíÿ âñå ñ òåìîé ñîñëîâèé ïîíÿòíî è ÿñíî. | | |
| FuranNietchaieff
Ñîîáùåíèé: 227
Íà ñàéòå ñ 2023 ã.
Ðåéòèíã: 48
| Íàâåðõ ##
11 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 0:55 Hello everyone.
I'm back after a few vacations. I didn't quite understand the debate. I had the impression that it revolved around a word concerning Jankel Gurin. What do I ultimately understand? | | |
| FuranNietchaieff
Ñîîáùåíèé: 227
Íà ñàéòå ñ 2023 ã.
Ðåéòèíã: 48
| Íàâåðõ ##
11 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 0:59 11 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 1:01 At the same time, I put some order into all the research and ended up understanding something. Every year at the Nikitsky Church, in the confessional sheets the families had to appear. For now, I have the years 1828, 1829, 1837, 1840, 1848 and 1850. There is a big gap between 1829 and 1837. Is it possible that the Nechaev are not in these declarations? Do I have to search the 800 pages of each year to find them?
I'm quite a perfectionist, I like to have all the documents relating to my ancestors even if it doesn't really help me advance in genealogy. | | |
| FuranNietchaieff
Ñîîáùåíèé: 227
Íà ñàéòå ñ 2023 ã.
Ðåéòèíã: 48
| Íàâåðõ ##
11 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 1:12 I also told myself that confessional sheets were rather interesting for finding families. So I could use it to find Vasily Nechaev's sheets with Mikhail as a child. So far I haven't found anything. It seems that Mikhail was born around 1788 then married in 1810 so in theory during this period I should find him with his father and mother. I found the confessional sheets for the Nikitsky Church in 1805 at this link: https://yandex.ru/archive/cata...1bbebd3645What are the chances of me finding it in there? If Mikhail and his children appeared in the confessions of the Nikitsky Church, what are the chances of him and his parents appearing there too? and if the Nechaev are not in the confessional sheets of the Nikitsky church how can I find the correct archives? Because when searching for "Vasily Nechaev, Moscow" in Russian are something like that in yandex found no results | | |
| siadeblanc
Õàáàðîâñê
Ñîîáùåíèé: 1636
Íà ñàéòå ñ 2021 ã.
Ðåéòèíã: 1030
| Íàâåðõ ##
11 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 4:59 11 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 6:27 FuranNietchaieff íàïèñàë: [q] At the same time, I put some order into all the research and ended up understanding something. Every year at the Nikitsky Church, in the confessional sheets the families had to appear. For now, I have the years 1828, 1829, 1837, 1840, 1848 and 1850. There is a big gap between 1829 and 1837. Is it possible that the Nechaev are not in these declarations? Do I have to search the 800 pages of each year to find them?
I'm quite a perfectionist, I like to have all the documents relating to my ancestors even if it doesn't really help me advance in genealogy.[/q]
Hi, you should look into The Church of the Nativity of the Virgin at Butyrki (öåðêîâü Ðîæäåñòâà Áîãîðîäèöû íà Áóòûðêàõ). Nechaev family was in this parish (look the confessional sheets that Atkara-EV previously found for you). Nikitsky Sorok is a group of churches no need to look into all 800 pages of them just find church in Butyrki. It should be noted that not all documents have survived time. You should also know that the surname was not always recorded in the documents. Sometimes only the first and patronymic names were at such documents. And one more thing - it is possible that Nechaev family before 1810 lived somewhere else or was parishioners of other parish. | | |
| siadeblanc
Õàáàðîâñê
Ñîîáùåíèé: 1636
Íà ñàéòå ñ 2021 ã.
Ðåéòèíã: 1030
| Íàâåðõ ##
11 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 5:02 11 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 5:05 >> Îòâåò íà ñîîáùåíèå ïîëüçîâàòåëÿ FuranNietchaieff îò 11 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2023 1:12 can't find Church at Butyrki in this confessional sheets | | |
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