Looking For A Marriage Record
Looking for a marriage record in Russian Empire
| FuranNietchaieff
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26 мая 2024 17:34 [q] In my opinion, there's no particular evidence on what grade he taught. I wrote above that it refered to class system of the Table of ranks.
And posted similar examples from yandex archives metrical books.
In my opinion also it was very unlikely that they even mentioned such details as what grade a teacher did in church records.
It was completely irrelevant for such documents, unlike the ranks and offices which they usually mentioned.
As for what grade he had and what subjects he taught, it can be found only in his service list (формулярный список) or the memorial book (памятная книжка) or address calendar (directory) (адрес-календарь) of Kovno governorate for the 1880s .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamyatnaya_Knizhka[/q]
okay I see. I won't do any further research on him at this time. It would have been good to have an idea of the age of the students, this way I could have compared with the education system in France to have an equivalent. | | |
| OlgaKob | Наверх ##
26 мая 2024 17:41 26 мая 2024 17:43 FuranNietchaieff написал: [q] okay I see. I won't do any further research on him at this time. It would have been good to have an idea of the age of the students, this way I could have compared with the education system in France to have an equivalent.[/q]
In case you've missed: I've found him Kovno governorate's memorial book for 1887 ( here)[q]
page 76
Kovno gymnasium
the teacher of the Russian literature (russkaya slovesnost), of the 8th class, Ignaty Evgevievich Engel, in office since 1885, graduated from Moscow university, marriaed, of the Orthodox faith [/q]
The above-mentioned book also mentions some Ivan Pavlovich KOSSOV, a teacher of ancient languages | | |
| OlgaKob | Наверх ##
26 мая 2024 18:43 Back to the "class" issue. Having scanned the above-mentioned memorial book of Kovno governorate, I've noticed that some teachers and officials are all given by this ''class'' title (sostoit v 8-m klasse), etc.), while others are mentioned with actual ranks according to the table of ranks (kollezhskiy asessor). Among those with real ranks are a provincial secretary (gubernskiy sekretar) which is a lower rank (12th, as I remember). While there's someone who's mentioned as being of the 10th class, which can have nothing to do with the number of grades, as there're never been more than 8 in the Russian gymnasiums. Well, why is such a difference? Here's a Moscow church record of 1850 [q] In the house of Mrs Nesterova, of the 8th class, Moscow university's adjutant-professor Fedor Ivanov Buslaev...[/q]
He's turned out to be a famous scholar. Here's his Wiki pageSo, hardly a university had 8 classes. Well, it's still to research for me. But my wild guess is it could be due to actually having a rank patent or not. Since teaching and serving at gynmasiums was considered equivalent to civil service, they had to be graded according to the system of the table of ranks. Yet, being straight from a university, they could have not yet obtained a proper patent for a rank. Plus, it could be that their teaching class was based not on a patent itself but on their education, the type of institution they taught at and what they taught and at which grade. Just wild guessing... Below are examples from Astrahan archives. Alexander Mikhailov Petrovsky, a teacher of Astrahan gymnasium. Here his wife's serf's marriage record of 1836. It mentions him as a ''official of the 9th class serving as a senior teacher at Astrahan gymnasium'' But here in his own marriage of 1833 he's mentioned as simply ''a senior teacher of the 9th class'' | | Лайк (1) |
| OlgaKob | Наверх ##
26 мая 2024 19:31 https://viewer.rusneb.ru/ru/00...heme=whiteHere's the memorial book of Kovno governorate of 1886. Ignaty is mentioned as a supernumerary teacher of the Russian language and literature. The memorial book of Kovno governorate for 1891he's mentioned as ''the teacher of the Russian language and literature, of the 8th class, an actual student (deystvitelny student) of Moscow university, Ignaty Evgenievich Engel, cavalier of the St Stanislav order of the 3rd grade, in office since 1885, married, of the Orthodox faith. Receives salart of 1840 rubles' He's mentioned as an áctual student of Moscow uni'until 1899. Here's the memorial book of 1898It mentions that he also had the order of St Anne of the 3rd grade and it mentions an address - Garnizonnaya st, the house of Mrs Dobrovolskaya. In the memorial book of 1899 he's mentioned as a court councillor (nadvorny sovetnik), which is the 7th class, and a teacher of Russian and latin. He's no longer mentioned in the memorial book of 1900 as a teacher at Kovno gynmasium. | | Лайк (1) |
| OlgaKob | Наверх ##
26 мая 2024 19:43 Here"Речи и отчет, читаемые на торжественном собрании Московского императорского университета 12 января 1886 года" The rank of ''actual students'' the students of History and linguistics department page 66 Ignaty Engel, it says that he finished Mogilev gymnasium. | | Лайк (1) |
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26 мая 2024 19:51 | | |
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26 мая 2024 20:11 26 мая 2024 21:02 Here's the memorial book of Kiev governorate for 1903 https://viewer.rusneb.ru/ru/00...heme=whiteIgnaty Evgenyevich is mentioned as a teacher of the 3rd Kiev male gynmasium. it says he had the rabk of collegiate councillor (kollezhskiy sovetnik), which was the 6th class. So, around 1899-1900 he received the rank of nadvorniy sovetnik, and between 1900 and 1903 he was elevated to kollezhskiy sovetnik, class 6th. And taught in Kiev. So, now, it's definate, that by 1900 he had the personal nobility. And it also says his address - Bolshaya Kudryavskaya, 31 (in Kiev) ................................................ The memorial book of 1901, Kiev governorate The 3rd Kiev male gymnasium [q] teacher of the Russian language, literature and logics, collegiate coincillor, I.E. Engel, Kadetsky avenue (prospekt). 30[/q]
https://viewer.rusneb.ru/ru/00...heme=whiteThe 1904 memorial book: https://viewer.rusneb.ru/ru/00...heme=whitehe's address was Georgyevskaya ploschad, 1 He's no longer mentioned at Kiev 3rd gymnasium in 1905 | | |
| OlgaKob | Наверх ##
26 мая 2024 21:30 HereЦГА Москвы, фонд №418, опись №294 дело 876 О принятии в число студентов Энгеля Игнатия, 26 июля 1880 - 17 октября 1885 | | |
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26 мая 2024 21:44 Here Engel's mentioned in Lithuanian eparchy digest (Vilno) [q] Kovno. The all-Russian celebration of the 900th anniversary of the baptism of Rus...At 5 p.m. in the hall of the city duma there took place a formal assembly where in accordance with the prepared program, there occured the following... 4) The teacher of the male classic gymnasium, Mr Engel suggested to the assembly a thorough narration on the life and accomplishments of St Prince Vladimir. [/q]
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| FuranNietchaieff
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28 мая 2024 19:16 28 мая 2024 19:23 wow, so much information was found on him!
If I summarize correctly:
Ignatiy was born on October 18, 1857. No place stated but possibly Belarus. Is the file available at the RGIA not digitized? I can't view the site at the moment.
He was at school in Mogilev before 1885.
In 1885, he was part of the Order of Saint-Stanislas of the 3rd grade as a cavalryman.
Between 1885 and 1899 he was admitted as a student to Moscow University.
In 1885 he married Aleksandra.
Between 1886 and 1899 he went to Kaunas where he had two children and where he worked as a Russian and Latin teacher.
In 1898 he received the order of St Anne. An address is indicated: Garnizonnaya Street. Is it in Lithuania or in Russia (Moscow?)?
From 1900 to around 1905 he was in Kiev, Ukraine as a professor. He achieved personal nobility too.
2 addresses were mentioned:
Bolshaya Kudryavskaya and Georgievskaya ploshchad. I couldn't locate in Kiev
If I'm not mistaken he would have done his military service between 1875 (18 years old) and 1885? Grigory and Ignatiy probably knew each other at that time.
Concerning Kiev, it makes me think of Mikhail Netchaieff was an artist in Kiev between probably 1919-1922 or 1914-1916. Grigory and Maria had probably settled there too.
I also noted for Mikhail Pavlovitch Kossov. Perhaps a nephew of Nedzia Kossova.
I also noted the non-digitized found concerning Ignatiy's school files
Besides, I don't know if I had asked, but what do you think of the first name "Nedzia"? Is it a real Russian name or do you think it should be Nadezhda/Надежда? The probability that Maria made a mistake in indicating her mother's first name in French is quite high I think. | | |
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