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Кантонисты

Источники информации и конкретные вопросы

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javax

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Несколько интересных линков о кантонистах
http://www.waronline.org/forum/sutra74493.html
http://www.geocities.com/m_tse...10p74.html
http://www.jewish.ru/7035-5.asp
http://vestnik.com/issues/1999/1109/win/mogil.htm

Яндекс и Гугль дают еще уйму интересных ссылок.

kaaskop

kaaskop

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тут информацию от родственников получила, что наш общий пращур тоже кантонистом был. Правда не  совсем понятно какой - или мой прапрадед, или прапрапрадед. И где его искать? Именно благодатя ему моим предкам и удалось выбраться из черты оседлости и поселиться в Вязьме.
Перелопатила кучу литературы о кантонистах и евреях в России вообще. Насколько я поняла, многие из них оставались жить там,где проходили службу. Если это в общих чертах верно( исключения оставляю на потом101.gif), то надо искать где-либо поблизости, т.е. в Смоленской губернии. Вот в одном из источнике говорится о том, что в Поречье( сейчас- город Демидов) была школа военных кантонистов.

Может кто-нибудь подскажет в каких документах может содержаться информация о кантонистах? Кстати, не знаю был ли пращур-кантонист крещен( многие выдерживали давление, пытки и т.д. и не меняли веру), но мой де  на старости лет стал ходить в синагогу и молился каждый день. Т.к. молился на иврите, думаю, что и хедер в детстве мог посещать.
И вот ссылка, которая мне очень понравилась

http://school.ort.spb.ru/library/torah/russ/russ000.htm

---
Ищу: Поповых и Токаревых( Москва/Калуга/Малоярославец),
Кромощ/ Кромышевых, Сендерихиных
Мой блог "Вязьма еврейская" http://jewish-vyazma.blogspot.com/
Форум "Еврейские корни" http://www.forum.j-roots.info/
javax

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Russian State Military History Archive (RGVIA) contains the documentary sources for
history of the Russian Army from the 16th century to 1918. There are 3,3 billion storage
units of the documents of the Military Ministry, General Head-Quarters, military officers
and troops of the Russian Army in this archive. The documents on Jewish history in the
RGVIA cover the period from 1802 to 1918.

The rich material is devoted to Jewish military service in the Russian Empire. It can be
found among the documents of some files of the RGVIA - "Kancelyariya Voennogo Ministerstva"
(the Head Office of the Military Ministry), "Inspektorsky Departament " (Department of Military
Inspection) etc. There are official documents about the service of "Jews-cantonist" in Russian
Army and about Jewish "military settlements" - the topics of the documents are ranged from the
cases of enforced conversion of "Jews-cantonists" to Christianity and the organizing the Jewish
military confession within the Russian Army to awarding Jews with the Russian military orders
and privileges after they retired from the Army. Some documents in the files of the Regional military
courts include the evidence of Jewish struggle against the authorities' policy. These are the reports
from Vilno, Minsk etc. about the escapes of Jews who were recruited to the military service and about
other forms of Jewish resistance. The files of Military Manufacturers Committees that were active in
Russia during the World War I (1914-1918) include the information about Jews - suppliers of the Army
and the Military Ministry's regulations concerning them.

The material for Jewish genealogy can be found in the file "Posluzhnye Spiski" (Personal files of military
officers). There is a personal file of Yosef Trumpeldor - the hero of Russian-Japanese War in 1904-1905
who became later a well-known Jewish public figure and the famous Jewish pioneer in Palestine.
The published survey of the Jewish documental material in the RGVIA includes annotations of 18 files,
1804-1918.

javax

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Last week I see some posts in JG about service
of Jews in Russian Army especially in time
of the Tsar=92 Nikolay I (1825-1855) when young
Jewish boy served from age of 8 as "Cantonists"
up to age of 18 and after it as much as for
25 years more. There are a lot of materials on
the topic. I list some of its below.

Most of its are eyewitnesses stories.

Beilin S. "Iz rasskazov o kantonistakh"
(From stories about Cantonists)
Voronovich N. "Iz byta russkoy armii"
(About everyday life of Russian Army)
Itzkovich I. "Vospominaniya arkhangelskogo kantonista"
(The Memoirs of Arkhangelsks Cantonist)
Leshchinsky N. "Stary kantonist"
(Old Cantonist)
Maimion M. "Istoriya odnoy kartiny"
(Story of a Picture)
Stanislavsky S. "K istorii kantonistov"
(History of Cantonists)
Usov G. "Evrei v armii"
(Jews in the Army)
Fliskin E. "Kantonisty" (Cantonists)

These books written in Russian.
I do not have information how to obtain these books.

After service in Army men of that time got special
social status called among common people
"Nikolayevsky Soldat". Looking through vital
records for my ancestors information I find that
Abram Charny (1822-1906) from Ostroshitsky Gorodok,
Belarus, was recorded not like all other Jewish
population "meshchane" (town dwellers) or
"zemledel'tsy" (working on land) but "otstavnoy ryadovoy"
(retired private) together with one more man
of his age from the town. Such people occasionally
had rights to settle out of Pale but generally that was
a privilege of converts.

Vitaly Charny
Birmingham, AL

javax

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This final note on the Russian conscription process begins with a
discussion of the cantonist movement. The men who were a part of it
were, unofficially, called by the Russian "lovchiki" or the Yiddish
"khapper" which is translated as both "kidnapper" or, more colloquially,
"one who grabs." And it is with this activity that the stories of
Jews avoiding conscription must come under closest scrutiny. This is
what appears to have happened.

The high quota that was demanded, the brutally severe conditions of
service, and the knowledge that conscripts would be forced to contravene
Jewish religious precepts and cut themselves off from their homes and families,
made those liable for conscription try every means of evading it. The
communal leaders who were made personally responsible for implementing
the law took the easiest way out and filled the quota from children
of the poorest homes.

Every community had special officers, khapers, who siezed the children,
incarcerated them in the communal building and, finally, handed them over
to the military authorities. The khapers were not scrupulous about
adhering to the minimum age of 12 and frequently impressed children as
young as 8. These were alleged by witnesses on oath to have reached
the statutory age. These children were most frequently then spirited away
to inaccessible places (cantonists institutions in Kazan, Orenburg
[now Chklaov], Perm, and Siberia) from where they could not escape and
return home, and where they waited until achieving the age of 12 at
which point they were then formally inducted into the army.

So it seems that something like half of the inductees would not have been
able to claim that they were sole supporters of families since this half was
no older than 12 and more likely no older than 8. The radical author,
A. Herzen, described a meeting in 1835 with a convoy of Jewish cantonists.

"The officer who escored them said, "They have collected a
crew of cursed little Jew boys of 8 or 9 years old. Whether
they are taking them for the navy or what, I can't say. At
first, the orders were to drive them to Perm; then there was a
change and we are driving them to Kazan. I took them over a
hundred versts farther back.' The officer who handed them over
said, 'It's dreadful, and that's all about it; a third were
left on the way' (and the officer pointed to the earth). 'Not
half will reach their destination,' he said.

[material deleted]

"The brough the children and formed them into regular ranks:
it was one of the most awful sights I have ever seen, those
poor, poor children! Boys of 12 or 13 might somehow have
survived it, but little fellows of 8 ..."

The bottom line of all this cantonist activity is this:

1) the khappers seized even Jews possessing legal (and
illegal) passports;

2) the possession of a deferral based on physical condition
was irrelevant;

3) the poimaniki (or the ones who were khapped), were
impressed into service with no ability secure redress;

4) children were the special objects of such raids though
no man was safe upon leaving his home;

5) several sources give the clear impression that the khappers,
themselves, were Jews; it is ironic that the word "khapper" appears
to be a variant of "kapo" though, in fact, it is not.

Insofar as Jews self-mutilating themselves by cutting off toes, a foot,
fingers, an ear, etc., this may indeed have been done by the most
desperate. But the stories that parents maimed their children in this
way cannot, in my view, be accepted at face value. Does any Jew think
that local rabbinic authority would have encouraged, permitted,
tolerated (chose whatever word you wish) the physical mutilation of
children for any purpose whatsoever? Does any Jew think that a
parent would do such a thing to their child, no matter what the
provocation? That parents have killed their children in defense of
HaShem is well documented both in the times of the Crusades, and also
in the best-known case of Masada, but deliberate mutilation of children
is not only unknown, it is a disgusting suggestion. And not for one
moment do I believe these stories or any others of this nature on the
basis of the evidence presented.

However, there were reported cases of children who were made unfit for
service (or at least an attempt was made to make them unfit) by not
permitting them to sleep for days, running them around town for hours until
they were exhausted, and starving them, etc. I can understand, believe,
and accept this, but physical mutilation? No!

This leaves us with only one question yet to be addressed: why do these
stories exist? And for that, I suggest a plausable but invented
hypothesis. Most of the adult Jewish males who came to the United
States came here with forged paper, fleeing Russia as illegal
emmigrants, which, to a certain extent, made them illegal immigrants.

These people were terrified that their illegal presence in the U.S.
would become known and they they and their familities would be
unwillingly returned to Russia.

As a consequence, they made up stories that made their presence in the
U.S. quasi legal; i.e., as the purported only son of a family (and
they had forged documents in support of that -- my great, great uncle
Moshe Singer of Reading, PA was such a forger), they would say that this
legally excused them from service in the Russian army, and their
presence here was much more lawful, at least in their eyes. But if
it were to be found out that their entire paperwork trail was based on
an illegal flight from a sovereign state, they foresaw nothing but
trouble. So they made up bube meises, and their children repeated
them, and we heard them, and we pass them on to our children. And
we spend years trying to find the family "Smith" whose name they adopted
when they became the erstwhile only child of Mr. and Mrs. Smith. And there
is no such family because the whole thing never happened that way.

I ask you to accept that, while I am talking as if
I know something, in fact, I do not. This is a lot of speculation
based on the principle of Occam's Razor; i.e., given a situation,
the most likely cause of that situation is the simplest suggestion,
not an elaborate and complicated one.

There are several interesting books on the subject that you may find
enjoyable. I certainly did. Besides the "Journey of David Tobock"
mentioned earlier, there is "The Shteltl Book" by Roskies, "The
Ladsman" by Peter Martin (a fiction novel), "The Persecution of the
Jews in Russia," London, 1891, Report of the Russo-Jewish Committee,
and, of course, the Encyclopedia Judaica, though the 1903 edition is
the more helpful. This latter reference tool is much closer to the
problem and, in my opinion, much more accurate and descriptive.

In closing, I end with two points

1) David Chapin (dchapin@er.arco.com) corrects an error in
an earlier note when he points out that, under the Tsar
Alexander (assassinated in the 1880s), the service duration of
25 years was reduced to 5-10 years. When Alexander was
assassinated the Jews of Russia considered this a great
calamity and the emmigration to the United States doubled and
tripled right after his death. Why? They fear reinsitution of
the 25 year military service requirement.

2) Many Jews considered it their duty to serve in the Russian
army and Sholem Aleichem, in a serious story, comments on how
two Jews spend Passover, proud of their ability to be of
service to their country. When such men completed their 25
years of service, they were considered heros as they returned
to an often very different village from that which they left.


====================================
Dan Leeson, Los Altos, California
(leeson@admin.fhda.edu)

javax

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My great grandfather was a soldier in the army of Nicholas 1st. He was a
Cantonist picked up off the street at age 8 or 10. Those boys (who lived)
were sent to schools called cantons where they remained till 18 after
which they went to the army for 25 years. And so my great grandfather
served in the Crimean war.
The only book I managed to get that tells about the life of those
Jewish boys and men Is "Kantonistn" by Abraham Lewin. It is at the New
York Public Library. It is on microfilm in Hebrew character Yiddish. The
last quarter of the book has some personal stories of a handful of men
involved. I had been hoping for the kind of inclusive and comprehensive
presentation of good writing which these unfortunately lack.
What I would like to get are stories that reveal the gamut of
experience of these Jewish boys and men taken to serve in the Russian
Imperial Army of Nicholas 1. Stories that tell of the day to day life they
shared with their officers and fellow soldiers. I would like to get an
insight into the thoughts, feelings and all the differing degrees of
attitude that filled them. Those with adamant adherence to Russian
patriotism, or to principles Judaism to interest in democracy, ideas of
America, of a Jewish homeland, socialism, and to the degrees of
ambivalence about all of that to be found in any such body of young
men.
Some novels and or stories specifically about that would be more to
my purpose but I know of none. There may be books to my purpose in Russian
Polish German Hebrew, or Yiddish but if translated to English I am
unaware. I would love to hear from anyone who knows of it.
Before Nicholas The First Jews were not allowed into the Russian
imperial army. Nevertheless they had to pay for not serving . Nicholas
changed that and required their service. The term of service was 25 years
for all soldiers not just Jews. The age of enlistment was 18. Jews were
allowed to substitute young boys of 12 (according to the law) who entered
cantons as substitute for 18 year olds. It was up to the Jewish community
to meet the conscription quota and much corruption in the community was
rampant in connection with the grabbing of the children even of 8 years as
substitutes. Of course when the boys who lived through it all became 18
they entered the army for 25 years. In 1855 at the end of Nicholas reign
the length of service was shortened but from then on Jews were required to
serve.
Will Osborne Willmo@aol.com
javax

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Короче - много людей, занимающихся еврейской генеалогией интересуются кантонистами.

Советую написать в newsgroup soc.genealogy.jewish  о своих историях и спросить что люди советуют.

kaaskop

kaaskop

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Тут на сайте в одном из топиков давали замечательную ссылку на Исторические источники.
Еще раз продублирую.

http://www.hrono.ru/dokum/docum19.html


Там масса всяких указов. Но одного я не нашла - согласно которому николаевским солдатам и евреям-кантонистам разрешалось селиться вне черты оседлости.
Может кто-нибудь поможет? Интересует точное название и ссылка, конечно.

---
Ищу: Поповых и Токаревых( Москва/Калуга/Малоярославец),
Кромощ/ Кромышевых, Сендерихиных
Мой блог "Вязьма еврейская" http://jewish-vyazma.blogspot.com/
Форум "Еврейские корни" http://www.forum.j-roots.info/
javax

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Я посмотрел там все законы о евреях и не нашел
javax

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http://www.retranslator.ru/ind...ageId=1555
указом 1827 года "евpейским обществами было
пpедоставлено по своему усмотpению сдавать вместо одного взpослого - одного
малолетнего", с 12 лет19 (то есть ещё не бpачного евpейского возpаста).

на приведенном сайте указов за 1827 совсем нет

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