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| Woldwar Íà÷èíàþùèé
Ñîîáùåíèé: 23 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2003 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 9 | Ââåðõ #16 íîÿáðÿ 2003 12:30 [q] Ôèíëÿíäèÿ (ôèí. Suomi, øâåä. Finland, ïðîèçíîøåíèå íà îáîèõ ÿçûêàõ (èíô.); îôèöèàëüíî — Ôèíëÿ́íäñêàÿ Ðåñïó́áëèêà, ôèí. Suomen tasavalta, øâåä. Republiken Finland[5]) — ãîñóäàðñòâî â Ñåâåðíîé Åâðîïå íà âîñòî÷íîì ïîáåðåæüå Áàëòèéñêîãî ìîðÿ. Íà âîñòîêå ãðàíè÷èò ñ Ðîññèåé è âõîäÿùåé â å¸ ñîñòàâ ðåñïóáëèêîé Êàðåëèåé, íà ñåâåðå ñ Íîðâåãèåé è íà çàïàäå ñî Øâåöèåé. Íà þãå áëèæàéøèì ñîñåäîì ÿâëÿåòñÿ Ýñòîíèÿ ê þãó îò Ôèíñêîãî çàëèâà. Ñòîëèöà è êðóïíåéøèé ãîðîä Ôèíëÿíäèè — Õåëüñèíêè. Âèêèïåäèß
[/q] Íàöèîíàëüíûé àðõèâ Ôèíëÿíäèè Ïåðåïîñò >>>>ÀÒÄ ÔèíëÿíäèèÒåððèòîðèÿ Ôèíëÿíäèè äåëèòñÿ íà ðåãèîíû (ôèí. maakunnat/øâåä. landskap), ðåãèîíû íà ãîðîäà (ôèí. kaupunki/øâåä. stad) è êîììóíû (ôèí. kunta/øâåä. kommun).
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litanaÄîëãîæèòåëü ôîðóìà  Ðîññèÿ, Ìîñêâà Ñîîáùåíèé: 6087 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2009 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 2952 | Ââåðõ #6 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2015 18:53 Arcobaleno ×òî áûëî, òî è íàïèñàëà. Ïî îïûòó ìîãó ñêàçàòü, ÷òî ôîðìóëÿðíûå ñïèñêè ÷èíîâíèêîâ ìîãóò áûòü íå òîëüêî â ô.1349, íî è â ôîíäàõ ìèíèñòåðñòâà, â êîòîðûõ îíè ñëóæàò. Ñëåäîâàòåëüíî, åñëè çíàåøü. ÷òî ïðåäîê áûë íà ãîññëóæáå, òî ñíà÷àëà Àäðåñ-êàëåíäàðè, ÷òîáû âûÿñíèòü ìèíèñòåðñòâî, èëè àäðåñíûå êíèãè, òàì òîæå ïèñàëè, à ïîòîì ôîíä ìèíèñòåðñòâà èçó÷àòü. | | |
SpaceAVMÏî÷åòíûé ó÷àñòíèê  Ïåòðîçàâîäñê Ñîîáùåíèé: 108 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2015 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 31 | Ââåðõ #21 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2015 11:39Ñîñòàâëÿåì åäèíîå êàðåëî-ôèíñêîå ãåíåàëîãè÷åñêîå äðåâî Çäðàâñòâóéòå. Ýòî áóäåò èíòåðåñíî òåì, ó êîãî êàðåëüñêèå È/ÈËÈ ôèíñêèå êîðíè. Ìíîãèå ëþäè, ïðîæèâàþùèå íà äàííûé ìîìåíò â Ôèíëÿíäèè, ÿâëÿþòñÿ ïîòîìêàìè ïåðåñåëåíöåâ èç Êàðåëèè, óøåäøèõ â Ôèíëÿíäèþ â 1920-õ. Âîçìîæíî, èíôîðìàöèÿ çäåñü óæå áûëà ðàçìåùåíà. Åñëè íåò: íà äàííûé ìîìåíò â ñîçäàííîì íåñêîëüêî ëåò íàçàä ïðîåêòå "Ñóîÿðâè" íà ñàéòå geni.com, â îáùåì ãåíåàëîãè÷åñêîì äðåâå íàõîäÿòñÿ ïîðÿäêà 300 000 ÷åëîâåê. Î ïðîåêòå óæå âûõîäèëè ïóáëèêàöèè â ôèíñêîé ïðåññå. Âû òîæå ìîæåòå ïðèñîåäèíèòüñÿ, ïîñòðîèâ âåòâü ñâîåé ñåìüè, è àäìèíèñòðàòîðû ïðèñîåäèíÿò åå ê îáùåìó äåðåâó. Ïî÷åìó "Ñóîÿðâè"? Èçíà÷àëüíî ïðîåêò áûë ðàññ÷èòàí íà òî, ÷òîáû âîññîåäèíèòü ñåìüè, ðàçäåëåííûå âîéíîé, ïðîæèâàâøèå è ïðîæèâàþùèå íà ïðèãðàíè÷íûõ òåððèòîðèÿõ Ôèíëÿíäèè è Ðîññèè, íî ñåãîäíÿ îáúåäèíÿåò ëþäåé ñ îáùèìè êàðåëî-ôèíñêèìè êîðíÿìè, ïðîæèâàþùèõ âî âñåõ ñòðàíàõ çåìíîãî øàðà. Êàê ïðèñîäèíèòüñÿ, ÷òîáû âàñ è âàøó ñåìüþ äîáàâèëè â îáùåå äðåâî? - Çàðåãèñòðèðîâàòüñÿ íà geni.com - Ïðèñîåäèíèòüñÿ ê ïðîåêòó "Ñóîÿðâè" (http://www.geni.com/projects/Suoj%C3%A4rvi-%D0%A1%D1%83%D0%BE%D1%8F%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B8/13098) - Íàïèñàòü àäìèíèñòðàòîðó, êîòîðûé îñíîâàë ïðîåêò - Rejo Savola (îí ãîâîðèò íà ðóññêîì, àíãëèéñêîì, ôèíñêîì è íåìíîãî íà êàðåëüñêîì). - Åñòü òàêæå ãðóïïà â Ôåéñáóê: https://www.facebook.com/groups/suojarvi/- Íåäàâíî îòêðûòà ãðóïïà ÂÊîíòàêòå - ìîæåòå ïîäàâàòü çàÿâêè: https://vk.com/gp_suojarvi --- Èùó Ìàòâååâûõ èç Êàðåëèè (Îëîíåöêàÿ ãóáåðíèÿ, Ìÿíäóñåëüãñêàÿ âîëîñòü, Ñâÿòíàâîëîê - Mantyselka, Pyhaniemi) | | |
ArcobalenoÄîëãîæèòåëü ôîðóìà  Ïñêîâ Ñîîáùåíèé: 2781 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2010 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 4600 | Ââåðõ #29 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2015 23:46 Âñåì äîáðîãî âðåìåíè ñóòîê! Áëàãîäàðÿ ýòîìó ôîðóìó è ôîðóì÷àíàì óäàëîñü íàéòè èíôîðìàöèþ î ìîèõ ïðà(4)äåäóøêå è áàáóøêå. Éîõàí (Õàííåñ) Ëàêìàí è Êàðèí (Êàòðèí) Âàë(ë)èóñ.Íàéäåíà çàïèñü îá èõ áðàêå, à òàêæå ìíîæåñòâî çàïèñåé â èñïîâåäíûõ ðîñïèñÿõ. Âî âñåõ èñïîâåäíûõ ó Êàðèí Âàëëèóñ óêàçàí ãîä ðîæäåíèÿ -- 1788. Ïî âîçðàñòó, óêàçàííîìó â ìåòðèêàõ î ðîæäåíèè åå äåòåé ïîëó÷àåòñÿ, ÷òî îíà 1785-86 ãîäà ðîæäåíèÿ. Òàêèì îáðàçîì, ðîæäåíèå Êàðèí äîëæíî áûòü â èíòåðâàëå 1785-1788. çàïèñè î áðàêå óêàçàíî, ÷òî Êàðèí -- èç Ëèåêñû. Íå ïîëó÷àåòñÿ íàéòè çàïèñü î ðîæäåíèè Êàðèí. Èñêàëà íà Õèñêè, è íå òîëüêî òàì... Âñå íàéäåííûå çàïèñè ñäåëàíû èëè ðàíüøå (1782-83) èëè, íàîáîðîò, ïîçæå. Ïðîáîâàëà èñêàòü òàêæå ïî âñåé Ôèíëÿíäèè (íà âñÿêèé ñëó÷àé). Òà æå èñòîðèÿ -- çà íóæíûå ãîäû çàïèñåé íå íàõîæó. Îá îøèáêàõ â äîêóìåíòàõ íàñëûøàíà, íî íåóæåëè ìîãëè íàñòîëüêî îøèáèòüñÿ ñ äàòàìè âî âñåõ äîêóìåíòàõ ñðàçó? Ïîñîâåòóéòå, ÷òî åùå ïðåäïðèíÿòü --- ÎÑÒÀÔÜÅÂÛ, ÄÅÍÈÑÅÍÊÎ - Êóáàíü
ÁÎÐÄÈÊÎÂÛ (ÁÎÐÄÞÃÎÂÛ) - Âîðîíåæñêàÿ ãóá
ÔÅÄÎÐÎÂÛ (ÁÎËÜØÀÊÎÂÛ) - Ïñêîâñê.ó., ä.Çàãîðüå
ËÀÊÌÀÍ, ÂÀËÈÓÑ, ËÈÑÒÅÍÈÓÑ, ÒÎËÈÀÍÄÅÐ, ÂÅÍÄÀËÈÓÑ, ÁÓËÈÕ - Ôèíëÿíäèÿ
ÃÀÐÊÓØÀ - Àáèíñêàÿ | | |
litanaÄîëãîæèòåëü ôîðóìà  Ðîññèÿ, Ìîñêâà Ñîîáùåíèé: 6087 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2009 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 2952 | Ââåðõ #30 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2015 0:56 Îëü. Òî÷íûå äàòû òîëüêî â ìåòðèêàõ î ðîæäåíèè.  èñïîâåäêàõ è çàïèñÿõ î áðàêå è, óæ òåì áîëåå ñìåðòè, äàòû äîâîëüíî ïðèáëèçèòåëüíûå. À íà ÊàðüÿëàÒê ïðîáîâàëà èñêàòü? | | |
litanaÄîëãîæèòåëü ôîðóìà  Ðîññèÿ, Ìîñêâà Ñîîáùåíèé: 6087 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2009 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 2952 | Ââåðõ #30 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2015 1:07 Juuka - christened Years - 1800 Father's last name: VAL => Wallia, Wallius, Valdoin, Walja, Walius, Walljus, Waljus, Valdain, Walluis, Waldanen, Wallia?, Waltanen, Walldanen, Walldain, Vallii, Walliuses Child's first name: KAR => Carl, Carolina, Karin, Karolona Born Christened Village Farm Father Mother Child 28.2.1784 21.3.1784 Wuogo Israel Wallius Maria Kockonen Carl 3.10.1794 19.10.1794 Juga Matts Walius Maria Tackinen Anna Cath.
Kaavi - christened Years - 1800 Father's last name: VAL => Wallin, Vallia, Waldain, Wallatar, Wallius, Waljus, Walius, Waltanen, Walkonen, Walle Child's first name: KAR => Carl, Carolina, Karin, Kartina, Karina, Karulina, Karharina, Kartri Born Christened Village Farm Father Mother Child 12.2.1792 23.3.1792 Luikonlax Jöran Waljus Marg. Kasurin Catharina
Kontiolahti - christened Years - 1800 Father's last name: VAL => Wallius, Walius, Waljus, Valoin, Waldain, Waltanen, Walljus, Valkiain, Vallii Child's first name: KAR => Carl, Carolina, Karin, Karlina Born Christened Village Farm Father Mother Child 17.3.1792 8.4.1792 Utra Henr: Wallius Lisa Huskoin Maria Catharina
Pielisjärvi - christened Years - 1800 ... 27.10.1782 24.11.1782 Liexa Eric Wallius Carin Määttein Catharina 22.6.1783 27.7.1783 Vegi Isaac Wallius Valb. Pakarinen Carin 10.1.1789 22.1.1789 Liexa Adam Wallius Valb. Oinoin Elin Carin 11.10.1790 20.10.1790 Wiegi Jöran Wallius Carin Mardikain Carin 16.6.1792 8.7.1792 Wiegi Jöran Wallius Carin Mardikain Carin 12.9.1792 13.9.1792 Pangajärvi Michael Wallius Anna Sijra Catharina
È òàì åùå ìíîãî
Sortavalan maaseurakunta - Sordavala landsförsamling - christened Years - 1800 Father's last name: VAL => Wahlberg, Wallin, Walkoin, Wallkoin, Wallia, Wallius, Walius, Waljus, Walljus, Wallerius, Walerius, Waldoin, Walenjus, Waltin, Wallenius, Walling, Walkonen, Waldanen, Walerus, Wallgren, Waltanen, Waldonen, Waltonen, Wallqvist, Wallinki, Valta, Walenius, Walman, Valle, Walka, Wallman, Wallendahl, Wallendahr, Walter, Walii, Wallman?, Walin, Waller, Walju, Walenii, Waljux, Walinen, Wallendohn, Wallanen, Wallerii, Waljas, Valtee, Walkiala, Waltu, Walonen, Waleruus, Walldeman, Waljakka Child's first name: KAR => Carl, Carolina, Karin, Karulina, Karina Born Christened Village Farm Father Mother Child 6.5.1775 10.5.1775 Staden präst. Peter Wallberg fru Beata Hel. Herkepaus Helena Cath. original - SP: nainen original - ALKUPKOMM: 2.1.1783 6.1.1783 Vorsu Joh. Waljus Maria Silvendoin Catharina original - SP: nainen original - ALKUPKOMM: 24.10.1785 26.10.1785 Worsu Henr. Waljus Cath. Tietäväin Catharina original - SP: nainen original - ALKUPKOMM: | | |
ArcobalenoÄîëãîæèòåëü ôîðóìà  Ïñêîâ Ñîîáùåíèé: 2781 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2010 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 4600 | Ââåðõ #30 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2015 1:21 30 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2015 1:40 litana íàïèñàë: [q] À íà ÊàðüÿëàÒê ïðîáîâàëà èñêàòü? [/q]
Íàòàø, òîëüêî ÷òî ïîïðîáîâàëà (ñ ðàçíûìè âàðèàíòàìè íàïèñàíèÿ ôàìèëèè). Íå èùåòñÿ. Ê òîìó æå, âåäü ýòî ñîâñåì äðóãîé ðåãèîí?..  çàïèñè î áðàêå ñêàçàíî, ÷òî îíà èç Ëèåêñû. Îçíà÷àåò ëè ýòî, ÷òî îíà òàì ðîäèëàñü? Èëè ýòî îçíà÷àåò, ÷òî îíà æèëà â Ëèåêñå íåïîñðåäñòâåííî ïåðåä âñòóïëåíèåì â áðàê?  ïðÿòêè èãðàåò ïðà....áàáóøêà --- ÎÑÒÀÔÜÅÂÛ, ÄÅÍÈÑÅÍÊÎ - Êóáàíü
ÁÎÐÄÈÊÎÂÛ (ÁÎÐÄÞÃÎÂÛ) - Âîðîíåæñêàÿ ãóá
ÔÅÄÎÐÎÂÛ (ÁÎËÜØÀÊÎÂÛ) - Ïñêîâñê.ó., ä.Çàãîðüå
ËÀÊÌÀÍ, ÂÀËÈÓÑ, ËÈÑÒÅÍÈÓÑ, ÒÎËÈÀÍÄÅÐ, ÂÅÍÄÀËÈÓÑ, ÁÓËÈÕ - Ôèíëÿíäèÿ
ÃÀÐÊÓØÀ - Àáèíñêàÿ | | |
ArcobalenoÄîëãîæèòåëü ôîðóìà  Ïñêîâ Ñîîáùåíèé: 2781 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2010 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 4600 | Ââåðõ #30 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2015 1:40 Íàòàø, êàê ó Âàñ ëîâêî ïîëó÷àåòñÿ èñêàòü, ïðîñòî âîñõèùàþñü Íåêîòîðûå èç ýòèõ çàïèñåé âèäåëà, íî íå âñå. Íå ïîíèìàþ, êàê ïðè òàêîì èçîáèëèè âûáîðà íàéòè "ñâîþ" ïðà.... --- ÎÑÒÀÔÜÅÂÛ, ÄÅÍÈÑÅÍÊÎ - Êóáàíü
ÁÎÐÄÈÊÎÂÛ (ÁÎÐÄÞÃÎÂÛ) - Âîðîíåæñêàÿ ãóá
ÔÅÄÎÐÎÂÛ (ÁÎËÜØÀÊÎÂÛ) - Ïñêîâñê.ó., ä.Çàãîðüå
ËÀÊÌÀÍ, ÂÀËÈÓÑ, ËÈÑÒÅÍÈÓÑ, ÒÎËÈÀÍÄÅÐ, ÂÅÍÄÀËÈÓÑ, ÁÓËÈÕ - Ôèíëÿíäèÿ
ÃÀÐÊÓØÀ - Àáèíñêàÿ | | |
litanaÄîëãîæèòåëü ôîðóìà  Ðîññèÿ, Ìîñêâà Ñîîáùåíèé: 6087 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2009 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 2952 | Ââåðõ #30 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2015 8:18 Arcobaleno íàïèñàë: [q]  çàïèñè î áðàêå ñêàçàíî, ÷òî îíà èç Ëèåêñû. Îçíà÷àåò ëè ýòî, ÷òî îíà òàì ðîäèëàñü?Èëè ýòî îçíà÷àåò, ÷òî îíà æèëà â Ëèåêñå íåïîñðåäñòâåííî ïåðåä âñòóïëåíèåì â áðàê?[/q]
Îëü. Ýòî îçíà÷àåò, ÷òî îíà áûëà ïðèõîæàíêîé Pielisjärvi èç Ëèåêñû. À âîò êàê îíà òóäà , ïîïàëà, âîïðîñ. Òîëüêî òî÷íî íå ïåðåä ñàìîé ñâàäüáîé.  Pielisjärvi ïîäõîäÿùèõ ìíîãî, òàê ÷òî, íà÷àòü èìåííî ñ íèõ. Òàì åñòü è íàèáîëåå ïîäõîäÿùàÿ è ïî âîçðàñòó è ïî ìåñòó ïðîæèâàíèÿ. 10.1.1789 22.1.1789 Liexa Adam Wallius Valb. Oinoin Elin Carin åñòü è åùå îäíà, 1782 ã.ð. Íî ÿ áû íà÷àëà èìåííî ñ ýòîé. Arcobaleno íàïèñàë: [q] êàê ó Âàñ ëîâêî ïîëó÷àåòñÿ èñêàòü, ïðîñòî âîñõèùàþñü Íåêîòîðûå èç ýòèõ çàïèñåé âèäåëà, íî íå âñå.[/q]
Îáðàòèòå âíèìàíèå, êàê ÿ ðàñøèðÿþ ïîèñê. ß ââîæó òîëüêî ÷àñòü ôàìèëèè, ÷àñòü èìåíè ðåáåíêà è â âûäàííûõ äàííûõ âèäíî, ÷òî ïîèñêîâàÿ ñèñòåìà Õèñêè ÑÀÌÀ ïåðåáèðàåò âàðèàíòû. [q] Years - 1800 Father's last name: VAL => Wallin, Vallia, Waldain, Wallatar, Wallius, Waljus, Walius, Waltanen, Walkonen, Walle Child's first name: KAR => Carl, Carolina, Karin, Kartina, Karina, Karulina, Karharina, Kartri [/q]
Õèñêè òîëüêî ñäâîåííûå ñîãëàñíûå íå ïîíèìàåò è ck (íî ìîæåò ìíå òàê êàæåòñÿ). [q] Íå ïîíèìàþ, êàê ïðè òàêîì èçîáèëèè âûáîðà íàéòè "ñâîþ" ïðà....[/q]
À âîò òóò íàäî ñìîòðåòü âîñïðèåìíèêîâ è â ýòîé çàïèñè, â çàïèñÿõ äåòåé ó ýòèõ ðîäèòåëåé, è â çàïèñÿõ äåòåé ïîòîì ó êðåùàåìûõ. Ñìîòðåòü, ñîïîñòàâëÿòü, âû÷èñëÿòü, äóìàòü. | | |
ArcobalenoÄîëãîæèòåëü ôîðóìà  Ïñêîâ Ñîîáùåíèé: 2781 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2010 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 4600 | Ââåðõ #3 îêòÿáðÿ 2015 11:20 litana íàïèñàë: [q] 10.1.1789 22.1.1789 Liexa Adam Wallius Valb. Oinoin Elin Carin[/q]
Íàòàø, ìåíÿ íåñêîëüêî ñìóùàåò, ÷òî Êàðèí -- ýòî åå âòîðîå èìÿ, à ïåðâîå -- Ýëèí --- ÎÑÒÀÔÜÅÂÛ, ÄÅÍÈÑÅÍÊÎ - Êóáàíü
ÁÎÐÄÈÊÎÂÛ (ÁÎÐÄÞÃÎÂÛ) - Âîðîíåæñêàÿ ãóá
ÔÅÄÎÐÎÂÛ (ÁÎËÜØÀÊÎÂÛ) - Ïñêîâñê.ó., ä.Çàãîðüå
ËÀÊÌÀÍ, ÂÀËÈÓÑ, ËÈÑÒÅÍÈÓÑ, ÒÎËÈÀÍÄÅÐ, ÂÅÍÄÀËÈÓÑ, ÁÓËÈÕ - Ôèíëÿíäèÿ
ÃÀÐÊÓØÀ - Àáèíñêàÿ | | |
litanaÄîëãîæèòåëü ôîðóìà  Ðîññèÿ, Ìîñêâà Ñîîáùåíèé: 6087 Íà ñàéòå ñ 2009 ã. Ðåéòèíã: 2952 | Ââåðõ #3 îêòÿáðÿ 2015 11:42 Îëü. Âîò òóò ïóñòü íå ñìóùàåò ñîâåðøåííî. Äâîéíîå èìÿ â áûòó ïðåâðàùàëîñü â îäèíàðíîå, è çà÷àñòóþ îäíî èç èìåí çàáûâàëîñü. Âîò ñìîòðè, ïðèìåð. Peter Gust Berg + (1) Clara Dorothea Aspelund èìåëè ñûíà ANDREAS CARL ALEXANDER BERG  Ïîñëóæíîì ñïèñêå îòöà îí íàçâàí ïðîñòî Êàðëîì. ÒÎ, ÷òî ðå÷ü èäåò îá îäíîì è òîì æå ÷åëîâåêå, ÿ çíàþ òî÷íî, ò.ê. â ýòîì áðàêå ýòî áûë åäèíñòâåííûé ðåáåíîê, ìàòü óìåðëà ïîñëå ðîäîâ.
È òàêèõ ïðèìåðîâ ìíîãî, äàæå åñëè ïðîñòî ïîêîïàòüñÿ â òîì æå ôèíñêîì àðõèâå. Ñìîòðèøü áðàê, òàì ïîëíûå èìåíà ðîäèòåëåé. Ïîòîì ïðè ïðîñìîòðå çàïèñåé î êðåùåíèè äåòåé â ýòîì áðàêå, âèäíî, êàê èçìåíÿëîñü ïîëíîå èìÿ ðîäèòåëåé. | | |
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Ïîæàëóéñòà, ïî îòäåëüíûì íàñåëåííûì ìåñòàì è ñâîèì ëè÷íûì ïîèñêàì îòêðûâàéòå òåìû â ôàìèëüíûõ èëè äíåâíèêîâûõ ðàçäåëàõ. Ñïèñêè íàñåëåííûõ ìåñò ïî ñòðàíàì îãðîìíû è æåëàþùèõ îòêðûòü èíäèâèäóàëüíûå òåìû ìíîãî. Äîïóñêàåòñÿ ðàçáèâêà â ðàçäåëå ïî ðåãèîíàì, ãîðîäàì, êîììóíàì. Ïðîñüáà - ïðèäåðæèâàòüñÿ ýòîé ñõåìû.